The breast belongs to 26-year-old Sonnie Atwood, who was breastfeeding her 20-day-old son last week after finishing her own lunch.
When a restaurant employee told Atwood to cover herself because she was ruining other customers' appetites, Atwood said she felt humiliated, ashamed - and, after doing some research - entirely within her rights.
That didn't matter to at least half of the dozens of people who commented on a story about the incident posted on the Missoulian's Web site, www.missoulian.com.
“You can go to the bathroom or another more private place,” one person wrote. “No one should have to look at her exposing herself while eating. People had the right to complain.”
“I don't have kids or want them, and I don't want to see your kid suckling your breast,” wrote another. “Is it really that extreme, that wrong, to ask you to cover up? ... My preference is the steak I'm paying for, not your boob exposed because you're OK exposing it.”
But a father wrote, “My wife breastfeeds my son in public and private; no one has ever complained. If my son is covered up he refuses to eat. For anyone suggesting to use the bathroom ... would you eat your food in a public restroom?”
“I am thankful for the law,” the father went on, “however, I think the need for a law ... speaks volumes about the lack of compassion our culture has for its young and their mothers.”
The 1999 law, sponsored by state Sen. Carol Williams of Missoula, came about at a time when health agencies were getting more serious about promoting the benefits of breastfeeding - and after a Missoula mother was allegedly asked to leave the local YMCA while breastfeeding her infant in the pool area, according to Mary Pittaway, nutrition and wellness services supervisor with the Missoula WIC program.
“At the same time, there was a trend happening in other states, mostly in the South, where obscenity laws were being applied to breastfeeding mothers,” Pittaway says.
Pittaway and others didn't want efforts to promote breastfeeding - which included making it easier for mothers to do so when feeding time came - to hit a snag because other laws regarding obscenity and indecent exposure could be applied to a woman nursing her child.
The bill eventually found widespread support in the Legislature, Pittaway says. Some were drawn to the health benefits it provides babies and mothers; others liked the money that could be saved if taxpayers weren't paying for expensive formula for mothers on assistance programs.
A 2007 law, says Missoula City-County health services director Julie Serstad, expanded the scope and requires all public (i.e., governmental) places of employment to provide private areas for working mothers to pump or breastfeed.
Pittaway says that law found support from Gov. Brian Schweitzer, who told the bill's backers he and his wife had once been booted out of a restaurant because his wife was breastfeeding one of their children.
The health department has gone so far as to print “license to breastfeed” cards, available at WIC offices, that let new mothers know their rights when it comes to breastfeeding in public, and where to turn if they run into a situation like Atwood's.
They say the debate being waged online, however, tells them they need to do more to educate the public.
One said the restaurant was entirely within its rights to ask Atwood to cover up, and another said the law only protected Atwood from being arrested, not from being ejected.
“Because restaurants are privately owned enterprises, their owners/managers have a right to tell women to cover up their breasts regardless of any law,” the first person wrote. “This breastfeeding law is no more in effect in a restaurant than in someone's private home.”
Asked about that, Missoula City Attorney Jim Nugent looked up Montana Code Annotated 50-19-501, called “Nursing Mother and Infant Protection.”
“I think the key is there in the second sentence,” Nugent said. “It says a mother has a right to breastfeed in any location, public or private. It's not one of those laws where the language creates any question about it. The law says she has a right to breastfeed, so that's a statutory right.”
Some of those commenting online seemed surprised the law even existed.
“Oh, you've got to be kidding me,” said a woman who called herself “MT Mommy.” “She should at least have to cover up.”
Atwood said Monday she's surprised that the article drew so many comments.
“But I think it's kind of great in a way,” she added. “It wouldn't have gotten the response it did if we didn't need the discussion.”
Despite what the law says, several people felt Atwood should have covered her breast and child with a blanket when told to.
“Is it that much of an inconvenience to put a blanket over yourself and your baby?” wrote one person who identified herself as “Disgusted Montanan.” “As a woman, I am completely disgusted by your lack of respect for those around you. Cover yourself up!!!!!!”
“Once again, the self-absorbed need to be reminded of the difference between what one has a right to do and what is right to do,” wrote another. “It is simple enough to exercise a little decorum and use the blanket as a cover - the baby won't mind.”
Atwood “should have considered the feelings of others as well as her own,” said yet another. “There was a middle ground here.”
Others disagreed.
“How would you feel sitting at a table with family and having to eat with a bag over your head?” one wrote. “Why should a baby be hidden in shame for feeding?”
“Disgusted Montanan should just stay home, under her rock,” said another. “Or, if she feels a (breast) is that disgusting, she should move to an Islamic country in the Middle East where she can feel certain that a woman's body will be covered head to toe.”
“It's a sad world we live in that would find a mother feeding her child offensive,” wrote another. “Shame on the manager for giving into the holier-than-thou complainers who couldn't mind their own business and just let the Atwood family have a nice meal without being subjected to ignorant biases.”
Two people wrote that they were present at the restaurant sided with the Red Robin restaurant and the employee who told Atwood to cover up.
“I was actually sitting next to this table with my 7-year-old boy,” one said. “I don't have anything against breastfeeding in public but it's common (courtesy) to cover it up. I don't wanna see that while I'm trying to eat and then have to explain to my 7-year-old what's going on.”
“If anyone was in the wrong or should be apologizing,” the writer went on, “it should be the family, for causing a scene and making other people in the restaurant feel uncomfortable.”
For her part, Atwood says she probably would have covered up “if I'd been asked in a nice way.” That particular day, she says, happened to be the first since giving birth to her son 20 days earlier when she returned to her normal wardrobe.
“I had to open up by pulling the top down instead of pulling it up,” she says. “I'd never covered up with a blanket while breastfeeding before, but my shirt was always pulled up and covering part of my breast. I just didn't think about it.”
Now that she has thought about it, Atwood says, she would not use the blanket.
“I don't want my baby covered up when he's eating,” she says. “Eating is a family activity and I don't want to separate him from the rest of us. I don't want my baby not to be there.”
When a woman is breastfeeding her infant in a public place, Atwood says, people should “take control of their own comfort levels and look away.”
Atwood says she stopped reading the posts at the Missoulian Web site after the comments strayed from a discussion of the issue, and turned into personal attacks.
One called her a “total liberal hippy,” citing her retaining her maiden name after marrying, her children's names (River and Canyon) and the day care, Organic Sprouts, she and her husband Eric Siegel run.
“Hippy training center,” the writer called it.
“When they started calling me ‘a hippy with a green agenda' who's ‘indoctrinating children' based on one little article, I quit reading,” she says. “I said I could see both sides, I just felt people ought to know what the law says about it, that if someone complains, restaurants need to educate them about the law, not ask the mother to change how or where she feeds her child.”
A license to breastfeed
The Missoula City-County Health Department printed “license to breastfeed” cards that inform breastfeeding mothers of their rights, and give them a toll-free number to the State Human Rights Commission - 1-800-542-0807 - if they encounter problems. The cards are available at WIC offices throughout western Montana.
Why breastfeed?
Benefits to breastfeeding an infant, according to a Missoula City-County Health Department Web site
For the child:
- Breast milk is the ideal food for newborns and young babies.
- Breast milk is inexpensive, convenient, always the right temperature, and is uniquely tailored to meet all of a baby's nutritional needs for the first six months of life.
- Breast milk contains antibodies from the mother that can protect infants from infection.
- Breast milk helps boost the baby's own immune system.
- Babies who are breastfed have less frequent diarrhea, and have fewer ear or respiratory infections.
- Babies who are breastfed are less likely to develop asthma or diabetes, and less apt to be overweight or obese later in life.
- Exclusive breastfeeding for the first 6 months of life has also been associated with higher IQ scores.
For the mother
- Breastfeeding mothers burn more calories, which makes it easier for them to return to their pre-pregnancy weight.
- Breastfeeding mothers have lower rates of certain breast and ovarian cancers later in life.
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Seth Patterson wrote on Jan 6, 2009 7:15 AM:
" To those of you who have a problem with breast feeding in public I have three words for you, get over it. If you are uncomfortable with a woman breastfeeding in public don't look and if the site of breasfeeding ruins your appetite then eat in your own home. I've experienced this before while I was at work and it caught me off guard but I accepted it because that is how a baby is fed. Get over your personal views and realize that it's a human being and he/she has every right that you and I have and yes eating in public is one of them. "
Spyder56 wrote on Jan 6, 2009 8:42 AM:
" How about we put the "News'" back into the paper as opposed to a personal incident that most of us would rather not read about. Seeing as the Missoulian only prints letters that are within their views, what's the point of even sending one in? I do though, have to agree with the comment that what is so bad about being discreet about it? And also the comment that was made about her having a personal agenda for gaining attention about it. I can reccommend a good therapist to help with her with that condition. This is America the last time I checked, and even us non-hippies are allowed to have an opinion. Move back to where ever you came from if you have problems here, we are all trying to deal with our own problems, without having to hear about yours. "
pinklady wrote on Jan 6, 2009 9:12 AM:
" "Covering it up" is not as simple as many seem to think. Many babies will pull the blanket away or refuse to nurse under a blanket. It gets hot under a blanket, some babies are curious about what is going on around them and others just don't seem to want to nurse in the dark. While there is nothing wrong with trying a blanket, there is also nothing wrong with looking the other way. If you don't like it don't look at it. Sometimes the only other option for the mother is to let her baby cry. I've also seen the public's reaction to that in a restaurant. Moms and their babies should not be required to stay home ALL the time. People that have such vitriol for mothers and their babies - hippy or not, must have issues of their own. "
Karen wrote on Jan 6, 2009 9:53 AM:
" If a mom is comfortable using a nursing cover and her child tolerates it, super. Many children don't like to be covered up -- why would they? It's too bad people felt the need to shame a mother for feeding her child.
What a strange set of priorities we have that someone is afraid to talk to her 7-year-old son about the biological function of a breast! I can model a conversation in case that mom is still dumbfounded:
Kid: What's that lady doing?
Mom: Feeding her baby.
The End. "
What a strange set of priorities we have that someone is afraid to talk to her 7-year-old son about the biological function of a breast! I can model a conversation in case that mom is still dumbfounded:
Kid: What's that lady doing?
Mom: Feeding her baby.
The End. "
Madeleine Hat wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:35 AM:
" Wow. Here we go again. Seems every few years people get all in a huff about a mom doing what comes naturally: meeting the needs of an infant.
To those who keep saying "cover up," you might like to know there are articles of clothing that make that difficult. The mom in question wasn't showing off, she was feeding her child. Sometimes, one is so lost in this act one doesn't recognize the world around you. The focus is the baby, not the breast, and certainly not anyone outside that little circle.
To the parent who "didn't want to explain that to my 7-year-old," I beg to differ. A 7-year-old is perfectly capable of understanding what breasts are for: baby food!
If our society valued this act a bit more, we would objectify women a little less. Instead of being sex symbols, women would be seen as nurturers and care-givers. It would benefit us all. "
To those who keep saying "cover up," you might like to know there are articles of clothing that make that difficult. The mom in question wasn't showing off, she was feeding her child. Sometimes, one is so lost in this act one doesn't recognize the world around you. The focus is the baby, not the breast, and certainly not anyone outside that little circle.
To the parent who "didn't want to explain that to my 7-year-old," I beg to differ. A 7-year-old is perfectly capable of understanding what breasts are for: baby food!
If our society valued this act a bit more, we would objectify women a little less. Instead of being sex symbols, women would be seen as nurturers and care-givers. It would benefit us all. "
Disgusted Montanan wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:54 AM:
" I think if you would actually read all the comments that have been left, you would realize, those us against this aren't opposed to breastfeeding. It's the fact that people are only considerate of themselves and their issues and agendas they forget about having respect for others around them. And it isn't just with this issue, it's only one that is bringing this problem to the forefront.
If I had young children, of course I would not want to have that discussion of what that women and her baby are doing. It will only lead to more questions, and the way this society is headed, I would like them to retain their innocence just a little bit longer.
As for someone elses comment earlier that it makes the baby feel left out, and something about the memory of having it's head covered up and how it will feel ashamed, ask yourself, someone around you, your own kids, "How many memories do you have from when you a 2 year old, an 18 month old, 1 year old, 20 days old?" I'm gonna have to say probably zero memory of that time.
I guess the root of the issue is just respect everyone around you. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you HAVE to. "
If I had young children, of course I would not want to have that discussion of what that women and her baby are doing. It will only lead to more questions, and the way this society is headed, I would like them to retain their innocence just a little bit longer.
As for someone elses comment earlier that it makes the baby feel left out, and something about the memory of having it's head covered up and how it will feel ashamed, ask yourself, someone around you, your own kids, "How many memories do you have from when you a 2 year old, an 18 month old, 1 year old, 20 days old?" I'm gonna have to say probably zero memory of that time.
I guess the root of the issue is just respect everyone around you. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you HAVE to. "
Mother in MT wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:50 AM:
" All I can do is laugh when I read comments like, "How would you like to sit at a table with a bag over your head while you eat?" and "Eating is a family activity and I don't want to separate him from the rest of us." These statements are ridiculous! Do people really think that a 20 day old baby knows the difference? All he is caring about is eating. As a mother, I have learned to plan my baby's meals around shopping and my lunch time, so that I don't have to put my self in a position where I have to breastfeed in a public restaurant. If you aren't able to plan accordingly, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with pumping and feeding your child with a bottle while in public. People need to have some descency and respect for others. Also, places like Southgate Mall (where the restaurant was located) does offer a few nice women's restrooms with couches and private nooks that are PERFECT for breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is a wonderful thing to be experienced privately by a mother and her child. It shouldn't be something displayed for attention in public. "
R.V. wrote on Jan 6, 2009 12:11 PM:
" HOORAY for you Ms. Atwood. Someday these dinosaurs will die off.Some of you women out there have some real issues with your own bodies if you think breastfeeding or the sight of it,is disgusting. What a great opportunity to educate a seven year old about one of the wonders of nature. How does that jeopardise his innocence? Do you equate breastfeeding with obscenity? Welcome to Missoula Ms. Atwood. You are an obvious asset. "
In support of Sonny wrote on Jan 6, 2009 12:29 PM:
" RE:Spyder56
She was not the one with the problem.
She was feeding her infant. Her priority is her child, as it should be.
That is what our bodies are made for.
Not only should you look away, stop reading if you don't care, as you say.
How about we all just congratulate her on her precious addition to her family, welcome her to our community and wish her luck on her new business instead of displaying such narrow minded nastiness towards each other. "
She was not the one with the problem.
She was feeding her infant. Her priority is her child, as it should be.
That is what our bodies are made for.
Not only should you look away, stop reading if you don't care, as you say.
How about we all just congratulate her on her precious addition to her family, welcome her to our community and wish her luck on her new business instead of displaying such narrow minded nastiness towards each other. "
astereve wrote on Jan 6, 2009 12:59 PM:
" What is so obscene about breasts anyway? What is next, asking fat people or ugly people to stay home just because you don't like how they look?! Breasts were made for breastfeeding. If I have to be subjected to looking at fat pot bellies on the beach or in public then you can handle the one third of a breast you can see when a mother is nursing. What is this, the middle ages? Grow up! "
Another MT mother wrote on Jan 6, 2009 1:07 PM:
" It isn't always easy to "plan" a baby's meal schedule (especially a 20 day old) to avoid having to nurse in public. Further more, an exclusively breastfed baby who is less than one month old is too young to start on a bottle anyways, as this is a common cause of nipple confusion which can cause major breastfeeding problems. A mother and child should not be forced to stay home or go to a public restroom to nurse just because some stranger who shouldn't be watching in the first place has a problem with breastfeeding or breasts. Also, even the most conscientous mothers' attempts at discretion can be foiled by a distracted baby. If you happen to notice someone breastfeeding in public and you have a problem with it then don't look. I doubt this woman was standing on her table with her breasts hanging out for everyone to ogle, she probably fed her baby assuming that her fellow restaurant patrons were more interested in their meals and their dining companions than giving her the stink eye for not hiding while she fed her baby. Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of women who wear such lowcut blouses that just as much of their breasts are exposed as a woman who pulls the top of her shirt down on one side to nurse. It a sad statement about our society that there has to be laws written about this. "
Janelle wrote on Jan 6, 2009 1:59 PM:
" Cover yourself up? Better yet, just stay home and don't go to restaurants with your babies until they are 8 years old.
Give me a break. Breastfeeding mothers are not hippies nor whores for breastfeeding in public. You will see more 'T&A' on Dancing With The Stars than you would if you craned your neck to watch a nursing mother.
Congrats from PA on your new baby Ms Atwood! "
Give me a break. Breastfeeding mothers are not hippies nor whores for breastfeeding in public. You will see more 'T&A' on Dancing With The Stars than you would if you craned your neck to watch a nursing mother.
Congrats from PA on your new baby Ms Atwood! "
Ron Martino wrote on Jan 6, 2009 1:59 PM:
" I see that 'Disgusted Montanan' is still defending her abusive comments while remaining safely anonymous behind her pseudonym.
She claims that the breastfeeding mother is the one without consideration for others while simultaneously demanding that the woman and her child be forced to hide away out of sight so as to not 'disgust' her. I submit that the mother is not the one exhibiting a lack of respect in this matter.
Nor does she actually say how simply explaining to a young child that a woman is feeding her baby leads to a 'loss of innocence'. At what point does this loss normally occur? When they see an older baby being feed strained prunes? Later, when the child witnesses other kids getting ice cream cones? Or when they see teenagers having fast food in the park? Please, at what point is the sight of eating a life-changing experience for a child?
Perhaps if those who are 'disgusted' or offended by such a simple and normal act were to cease acting so childishly, we could set good examples for our children and worry less that a loving mother will somehow hurt their innocence. "
She claims that the breastfeeding mother is the one without consideration for others while simultaneously demanding that the woman and her child be forced to hide away out of sight so as to not 'disgust' her. I submit that the mother is not the one exhibiting a lack of respect in this matter.
Nor does she actually say how simply explaining to a young child that a woman is feeding her baby leads to a 'loss of innocence'. At what point does this loss normally occur? When they see an older baby being feed strained prunes? Later, when the child witnesses other kids getting ice cream cones? Or when they see teenagers having fast food in the park? Please, at what point is the sight of eating a life-changing experience for a child?
Perhaps if those who are 'disgusted' or offended by such a simple and normal act were to cease acting so childishly, we could set good examples for our children and worry less that a loving mother will somehow hurt their innocence. "
Janelle wrote on Jan 6, 2009 2:02 PM:
" RE: Mother in MT
You're right, just because you CAN hug your child in public doesn't mean you SHOULD. It disgusts me, please stop.
Keep on being a sheep. You're setting us all back a few decades. "
You're right, just because you CAN hug your child in public doesn't mean you SHOULD. It disgusts me, please stop.
Keep on being a sheep. You're setting us all back a few decades. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 6, 2009 2:48 PM:
" It would have been nice if the Missoulian would have quoted some of us who petitioned for a middle ground: pro breastfeeding, pro discretion. Are they out to prolong the flap?
How about this: not only a "license to feed" card but an "I am feeding" t-shirt (and card, too), in large enough print to be easily read: "I am breastfeeding my baby (because, list reasons). My legal rights are (summarize statute). My baby's needs are a priority, but I am doing my best to be courteous (respectful whatever) and would appreciate the same from you." You could probably sell a ton of 'em. Donate it to some appropriate cause. It would probably encourage breastfeeding better than this arguing. T-shirts can (and are) made to be nursed from btw.
A blanket isn't the only option, either. You can also get (find by google) Hooter Hiders, among other things.
And while we're on the subject of offense, why do people insist on calling a most feminine part of their anatomy by the same name people call idiots? Boob. It's just...tacky. "
How about this: not only a "license to feed" card but an "I am feeding" t-shirt (and card, too), in large enough print to be easily read: "I am breastfeeding my baby (because, list reasons). My legal rights are (summarize statute). My baby's needs are a priority, but I am doing my best to be courteous (respectful whatever) and would appreciate the same from you." You could probably sell a ton of 'em. Donate it to some appropriate cause. It would probably encourage breastfeeding better than this arguing. T-shirts can (and are) made to be nursed from btw.
A blanket isn't the only option, either. You can also get (find by google) Hooter Hiders, among other things.
And while we're on the subject of offense, why do people insist on calling a most feminine part of their anatomy by the same name people call idiots? Boob. It's just...tacky. "
Disgusted Montanan wrote on Jan 6, 2009 3:57 PM:
" Hey Ron, my name is Rachel Hulce. I'm from Hot Springs. There does that tell you enough. And as for the innocence I'm talking about, kids aren't going to stop the discussion at "She's feeding her baby." Have you ever heard of kids saying "Why?" After having spent 3 years helping my brother raise my nieces from 1 year old until now, the oldest is 7, I know that the discussion does not end with one simple answer. There are many societies that live in these United States that believe in modesty, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them or their children. I believe this discussion is not about whether or not to breastfeed children. It is about a common courtsey to those around you and modesty issue. If everyone would stop thinking about themselves and think about those around them, maybe this world would be a little bit different place!
And please Ron, at which point was I being abusive? "
And please Ron, at which point was I being abusive? "
Nathan wrote on Jan 6, 2009 4:05 PM:
" I'm ashamed to be a Missoulian today. If anyone tells my wife to cover up while she's breastfeeding you can expect me to have words with you. Missoula may be the liberal capital of Montana, but we certainly have a lot of ignorant conservatives still. "
In support of Sonnie... Ron wrote on Jan 6, 2009 5:36 PM:
" Per Ron: "She claims that the breastfeeding mother is the one without consideration for others while simultaneously demanding that the woman and her child be forced to hide away out of sight so as to not 'disgust' her. I submit that the mother is not the one exhibiting a lack of respect in this matter."
Why?? Because babies need to eat and that is how we are made. Its not a dirty secret unless you make it one. Its not a complicated question unless you make it one. After having raised 3 daughters & a son OF MY OWN just like many others here who have experienced the gift of breastfeeding, its nothing to be ashamed of. Its simple, its natural. A perfect opportunity to teach ahh and respect for a womens body instead of instilling shame.
"If everyone would stop thinking about themselves and think about those around them" Take your own advice. "
Why?? Because babies need to eat and that is how we are made. Its not a dirty secret unless you make it one. Its not a complicated question unless you make it one. After having raised 3 daughters & a son OF MY OWN just like many others here who have experienced the gift of breastfeeding, its nothing to be ashamed of. Its simple, its natural. A perfect opportunity to teach ahh and respect for a womens body instead of instilling shame.
"If everyone would stop thinking about themselves and think about those around them" Take your own advice. "
Hilaree wrote on Jan 6, 2009 8:20 PM:
" I have to laugh at the ignorance of a lot of these disgusted people, ESPECIALLY women.
Cover a baby up while eating...sure put a blanket over your head too, I'm sure you'll eat well that way.
Eat in a bathroom too while your at it. Talk about being hungry, yummy.
If you are disgusted by a child breast feeding you have some serious issues.
Children should be exposed to this! Its not stealing an innocence they have its showing them the way things should be done if the mother is capable of such a task. Rather than being discouraged by a family dining place to cover up her child because its offensive.
Women are either sicken by it because its attractive to them or ignorant to the benefits it has for the children lucky enough to have been breastfed for any amount of time.
Wow educate yourselves.
Please people, you ask for courtesy, I ask for respect.
I am a young mother who breastfed her son for 15 months, not a single complaint from anyone and I proudly breastfed in public in hopes of raising awarness. "
Cover a baby up while eating...sure put a blanket over your head too, I'm sure you'll eat well that way.
Eat in a bathroom too while your at it. Talk about being hungry, yummy.
If you are disgusted by a child breast feeding you have some serious issues.
Children should be exposed to this! Its not stealing an innocence they have its showing them the way things should be done if the mother is capable of such a task. Rather than being discouraged by a family dining place to cover up her child because its offensive.
Women are either sicken by it because its attractive to them or ignorant to the benefits it has for the children lucky enough to have been breastfed for any amount of time.
Wow educate yourselves.
Please people, you ask for courtesy, I ask for respect.
I am a young mother who breastfed her son for 15 months, not a single complaint from anyone and I proudly breastfed in public in hopes of raising awarness. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 6, 2009 9:04 PM:
" To the outraged defenders of Sonnie Atwood:
The breast in question was not a normal exposure. Usually when women breast feed there's not much to see. But she said it is bigger than her baby's head and she pulled her shirt DOWN, which means she had to nearly uncover everything.
The Montana law was written to be sure moms didn't fall under obscenity laws. It also includes a mandate for a PRIVATE place in government offices; obviously the lawmakers think there's a need for discretion.
Men didn't make breasts sexual. Centuries of evolution did that, and there is no physical/factual/logical argument to refute it. "Sexualized" is different. That's a matter of culture.
We're mammals, and mammals breastfeed. True. Dogs, cats, cows, also reproduce in public.
I don't think there's anything disgusting about breastfeeding. I do think there's a place for courtesy, and discretion. I have no issue with a glimpse of a baby being fed. I do think a show of a whole, very large breast, in a very public place, with no attempt at courtesy, is thoughtless. I would really like it if you could tell me what, exactly, would be wrong with just a little attempt, under those circumstances, at consideration. "
The breast in question was not a normal exposure. Usually when women breast feed there's not much to see. But she said it is bigger than her baby's head and she pulled her shirt DOWN, which means she had to nearly uncover everything.
The Montana law was written to be sure moms didn't fall under obscenity laws. It also includes a mandate for a PRIVATE place in government offices; obviously the lawmakers think there's a need for discretion.
Men didn't make breasts sexual. Centuries of evolution did that, and there is no physical/factual/logical argument to refute it. "Sexualized" is different. That's a matter of culture.
We're mammals, and mammals breastfeed. True. Dogs, cats, cows, also reproduce in public.
I don't think there's anything disgusting about breastfeeding. I do think there's a place for courtesy, and discretion. I have no issue with a glimpse of a baby being fed. I do think a show of a whole, very large breast, in a very public place, with no attempt at courtesy, is thoughtless. I would really like it if you could tell me what, exactly, would be wrong with just a little attempt, under those circumstances, at consideration. "
M_D wrote on Jan 6, 2009 9:58 PM:
" Breastfeeding is the best choice for many reasons, it is generally better for the baby's and mother’s health and it can also save the mother a lot of effort versus using formula or pumping. Statistics show long term average health benefits from breastfeeding, plus there is a bonding benefit between the mother and baby. Anything we can do to bring up healthy children is worth doing, and reducing future medical problems lessens the burden on society. Attending to a baby's needs is hard work for parents; people who place even more limitations and demands on the mother because of their own imbalanced and selfish attitude should be ashamed. Heaven forbid someone might have to explain breastfeeding to their child.
Outside the USA most 7 year old children will have witnessed breastfeeding for as long as their young minds can remember. They grow up with a healthier viewpoint about the sight of a female breast, one where the breast is not sexualized. Explaining breastfeeding to them is unnecessary.
The bible does not teach that the exposure of female breasts is immodest any more than those of men, contrary to the claims of some. "
Outside the USA most 7 year old children will have witnessed breastfeeding for as long as their young minds can remember. They grow up with a healthier viewpoint about the sight of a female breast, one where the breast is not sexualized. Explaining breastfeeding to them is unnecessary.
The bible does not teach that the exposure of female breasts is immodest any more than those of men, contrary to the claims of some. "
Beverly Carol Parkinson wrote on Jan 6, 2009 10:06 PM:
" Today is a day of liberation for me, thanks to Sonnie Atwood. I am a wheelchair bound Missoulian who has had to deal with nature vs. the world on many occasion, and from now on I'm going to do it ATWOOD STYLE! Instead of shamefully covering up my colostomy bag when I go to restaurants, I will now display it for all patrons to see. They will hear the sloshing of my waste material, see the glorious colors glisten within the wobbling bag, and if they are repelled, so be it. It is natural. It is my right. I will not worry about how it effects others... I'm doing it ATWOOD STYLE from now on. "
Spyder56 wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:04 PM:
" RE: In support of Sonnie, The issue isn't that she was breastfeeding the child or the function of our body's. Your college degree has diluted your ability to understand what I wrote. It's how she went about it. The others that wrote, who were there, said the management were as polite as the situation allowed. As to your suggestion, I cancelled my subscription to the Missoulian today, and won't even be reading it online anymore so you don't have to bother sending a response. My suggestion to you is to move back to where you came from and take your opinions with you. "
Another Montana Mom wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:23 PM:
" I breastfed my 2 children long before there was a law to protect us from discrimination. If you don't want to see, don't look. In a booth, it could not have been so obvious as to be offensive anyway. One of my children stopped breathing while being fed. Had she been under a blanket, it may not have been immediately seen. A blanket can also trap the carbon dioxide resulting in rebreathing. I read recently that they believe there may be a connection to rebreathing carbon dioxide and SIDS. So you may indeed be subjecting an infant to harm by insisting a breastfeeding mom cover up. Do you want that on your conscience? If you don't want to see, don't look, ask to change your table, sit in a chair or booth facing the other direction. Quit associating a feeding breast with something obscene or sexual. Get a life. "
jack wrote on Jan 6, 2009 11:29 PM:
" I plead guilty to speed-reading. Now that I look at the language of the statute again (I'm not an attorney, thank God) it doesn't appear to admit exceptions -- at all. Maybe be a nursing mother can't be compelled to cover herself in a restaurant, but what about in a religious building, during a service? It would appear from the statute that the deacons at Open Door Baptist would be in the same position as the management of the Red Robin. Not taking a side here, mind you, just asking a question, and I'd be interested in what the CIty Attorney had to say about that. And for all the back and forth about liberals vs. conservatives, it is interesting, isn't it, that the statute in question was passed in a republican-dominated legislature. "
Another Mama wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:33 AM:
" If you don't want to see breastfeeding, you do not have to look.
If young children were properly educated about breastfeeding, there wouldn't be so many hangups about breasts and their function, would there?
For those religious types 'worried' about so called modesty, what do you think that Mary and Jesus did? No blankets or hiding...they would have naturally done it out in the open like everyone else did then and still do in most countries of the world. "
If young children were properly educated about breastfeeding, there wouldn't be so many hangups about breasts and their function, would there?
For those religious types 'worried' about so called modesty, what do you think that Mary and Jesus did? No blankets or hiding...they would have naturally done it out in the open like everyone else did then and still do in most countries of the world. "
Cheryl Wolfe wrote on Jan 7, 2009 1:09 AM:
" It is amazing that with all of the information available there are still people who have a problem with parents doing what is best for their children. People of all ages need to know that breastfeeding is the healthiest and most natural way to nourish a baby. Time for a nurse in! You know, if you don't like it you should just mind your own business and look away. As far as your children, why should you be able to give your older children a meal in a restaurant and this woman not be able to nourish her baby? Be fair! Here is a wonderful PSA --please pass it on. http://tinyurl.com/359vda "
Disgusted Alaskan wrote on Jan 7, 2009 2:25 AM:
" If you're uncomfortable seeing my baby eat, you are welcome to cover yourself with this baby blanket. I'll let you know when we're done. "
Connie wrote on Jan 7, 2009 2:49 AM:
" The law is very clear regarding breastfeeding. However, as a mother who nursed children, I also understood that not everyone is comfortable with nursing in public.
If I nursed in public I would always consider my surroundings and the feelings of those around me. I can happily report I was able to nurse my babies in public without showing much more skin than a V-neck tee shirt and I did not have to hide my baby under a blanket to do this.
The law allowed me to be bare breasted in public if I was nursing. However, I didn't need to be....so why would I do such a thing knowing that others aren't comfortable with it?
Bottom line, being modest in public is just practicing good old fashion manners.
Honestly I don't understand why this is even an article in the paper....(perhaps Ms. Atwood was only looking for some free advertising for her business)..shame on the Missoulian for including her business name in two seperate articles, it had absolutely no relevance to the situation at Red Robin. "
If I nursed in public I would always consider my surroundings and the feelings of those around me. I can happily report I was able to nurse my babies in public without showing much more skin than a V-neck tee shirt and I did not have to hide my baby under a blanket to do this.
The law allowed me to be bare breasted in public if I was nursing. However, I didn't need to be....so why would I do such a thing knowing that others aren't comfortable with it?
Bottom line, being modest in public is just practicing good old fashion manners.
Honestly I don't understand why this is even an article in the paper....(perhaps Ms. Atwood was only looking for some free advertising for her business)..shame on the Missoulian for including her business name in two seperate articles, it had absolutely no relevance to the situation at Red Robin. "
Jennifer wrote on Jan 7, 2009 6:58 AM:
" quote-What a strange set of priorities we have that someone is afraid to talk to her 7-year-old son about the biological function of a breast! I can model a conversation in case that mom is still dumbfounded:
Kid: What's that lady doing?
Mom: Feeding her baby.
The End. endquote
Most of us parents know that often this is not the end of the conversation. Kids ask why. They have a RIGHT to know that babies are naturally and normally made to NURSE from the breast. So, explain it! That baby's eating. Why? Cause he's hungry! Why? Cause babies have tiny stomachs and they eat every couple of hours. Why? Cause that's how babies grow... etc etc.
If they ask, but why are they eating from that breast, then a responsible parent would explain that is what breasts are for. An ignoramus posing as a parent will try to hide or ignore breastfeeding as if it were a dirty or shameful thing.
It's not a "loss of innocence" for children to experience a baby breastfeeding. It's a darn shame that a 7 year old would be ignorant of breastfeeding up till now. It is a marker of our society's lack of common sense. It's ok to ogle breasts selling us beer and cars and shirts and watches and hair products and lawn mowers but it's not ok to catch a glimpse of a breast doing it's job in a most appropriate place for eating in public, a RESTAURANT! "
Kid: What's that lady doing?
Mom: Feeding her baby.
The End. endquote
Most of us parents know that often this is not the end of the conversation. Kids ask why. They have a RIGHT to know that babies are naturally and normally made to NURSE from the breast. So, explain it! That baby's eating. Why? Cause he's hungry! Why? Cause babies have tiny stomachs and they eat every couple of hours. Why? Cause that's how babies grow... etc etc.
If they ask, but why are they eating from that breast, then a responsible parent would explain that is what breasts are for. An ignoramus posing as a parent will try to hide or ignore breastfeeding as if it were a dirty or shameful thing.
It's not a "loss of innocence" for children to experience a baby breastfeeding. It's a darn shame that a 7 year old would be ignorant of breastfeeding up till now. It is a marker of our society's lack of common sense. It's ok to ogle breasts selling us beer and cars and shirts and watches and hair products and lawn mowers but it's not ok to catch a glimpse of a breast doing it's job in a most appropriate place for eating in public, a RESTAURANT! "
Leona wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:13 AM:
" hey, Disgusted Montanan-
you are breeding intolerance in your children by not trying to explain to them what they may see in public. 7 years old is NOT too young by the way (heck, my 2 year old understands). try this -
"what's that lady doing?"
"she's feeding her baby"
"but where's the bottle?"
"she's not using one. she's feeding the baby from her breast. when women have babies, their bodies make milk so they can feed their babies just like dogs, cats, and other animals do."
"oh. but why doesn't she use a bottle like everyone else?"
"not everyone uses bottles, you just see it more. some women rather feed their baby this way. there's nothing wrong with it and it's good for the baby."
~~ end of story. how hard was that? i've answered this question to dozens of kids (of all ages), and this is always satisfactory to them. occasionally you get the "what does it taste like?" question, but "i don't know, but the baby likes it" generally suffices.
get over yourself. it doesn't always have to be such a huge issue. "
you are breeding intolerance in your children by not trying to explain to them what they may see in public. 7 years old is NOT too young by the way (heck, my 2 year old understands). try this -
"what's that lady doing?"
"she's feeding her baby"
"but where's the bottle?"
"she's not using one. she's feeding the baby from her breast. when women have babies, their bodies make milk so they can feed their babies just like dogs, cats, and other animals do."
"oh. but why doesn't she use a bottle like everyone else?"
"not everyone uses bottles, you just see it more. some women rather feed their baby this way. there's nothing wrong with it and it's good for the baby."
~~ end of story. how hard was that? i've answered this question to dozens of kids (of all ages), and this is always satisfactory to them. occasionally you get the "what does it taste like?" question, but "i don't know, but the baby likes it" generally suffices.
get over yourself. it doesn't always have to be such a huge issue. "
sasha wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:11 AM:
" i am embarrassed by all of the negative comments here. would any of you be "disgusted" by a mom or dad feeding a baby a bottle? no, well why the heck not? it's the same thing, FEEDING YOUR BABY. get your minds out of the gutter. the mom could cover up IF she wants to, completely her choice, no one elses. she had no agenda other than to eat her lunch in peace, while also being a great mom. the more we as the public shame women about breastfeeding the fewer will do it, and that will only hurt all of us. i live in bozeman, have breastfed 2 lovely children and have witnessed hundreds of other moms happily nursing their little ones, and i have never seen anyone here give a negative remark. are we just more open minded and less judgemental? maybe we have more breastfeeding moms, so it's normal. just as it should be.
shame on you for condemning a mom for feeding her baby, rather than the ignorant patrons and waitress for their cultural stupidity. "
shame on you for condemning a mom for feeding her baby, rather than the ignorant patrons and waitress for their cultural stupidity. "
sammi wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:16 AM:
" WOW,honestly is it that big of deal to everyone? It's something that happened and it's done and over with maybe ya'll should focus your oppinions on something more important than a women brestfeeding, and how you can't controll your mouths. There are more important issuse than that, just a heads up to everyone............ "
1980s Mother wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:54 AM:
" It's okay for men to walk around without shirts in public, but it's not publically acceptable for a mother to breast feed her baby in public. I breastfed my children in the early 80's in restaurants and never had anyone question what I was doing. Aren't breasts part of the human anatomy? Do people relate an exposed breast to being a sexual stimulation? Get real! "
jack wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:55 AM:
" Re: MACBofit: "The Montana law was written to be sure moms didn't fall under obscenity laws. It also includes a mandate for a PRIVATE place in government offices; obviously the lawmakers think there's a need for discretion."
MB, I just looked at the statute in the Montana Code online, and I don't find any such provision in the statute itself. It would appear that the legislature didn't even except itself (and legislatures often do except themselves from legislation they pass, as Congress routinely does). In this state at least, legally speaking, public nursing proponents hold all the cards. "
MB, I just looked at the statute in the Montana Code online, and I don't find any such provision in the statute itself. It would appear that the legislature didn't even except itself (and legislatures often do except themselves from legislation they pass, as Congress routinely does). In this state at least, legally speaking, public nursing proponents hold all the cards. "
Kansas Doula wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:11 AM:
" Wow, I am shocked and saddened that one of my favorite cities-Misoula MT would treat a nursing mother in this manner. Missoula is one of my favorites because it is clean, attractive, and progressive (I thought) but now this?
There are already many wonderful posts regarding the ins and outs and legality of breastfeeding a child in public so I'll not rehash them. But I do have one point to make. I have to wonder if these same patrons (and then commentaters) that made such a fuss about seeing a natural functioning breast at work during a meal are quite as quick to condemn when it's an R-rated or sex laden movie that they are watching or even a simple beer/cigerette/movie commercial on the TV during meal time. Where is the outrage over the exposed flesh in these sort of shows and commercials? Which I would far less like to explain to my young child than an exposed breast doing what it's supposed to do.
Double standard anyone? "
There are already many wonderful posts regarding the ins and outs and legality of breastfeeding a child in public so I'll not rehash them. But I do have one point to make. I have to wonder if these same patrons (and then commentaters) that made such a fuss about seeing a natural functioning breast at work during a meal are quite as quick to condemn when it's an R-rated or sex laden movie that they are watching or even a simple beer/cigerette/movie commercial on the TV during meal time. Where is the outrage over the exposed flesh in these sort of shows and commercials? Which I would far less like to explain to my young child than an exposed breast doing what it's supposed to do.
Double standard anyone? "
LINDA wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:11 AM:
" Why make a mountain out of a mole hill?
After seeing all sorts of body parts on TV, at beaches, etc. It appears the flap is just, as usual, all have opinions--me too. I just ignore distasteful (to me) activities in public, unless it is disruptive to my health and well being, and enjoy life. I never thought a baby feeding was that interesting and makes me wonder why anyone is looking in the first place? Nosey is nosey, just leave others alone and do not stick your nose where it is uninvited. I could eat and enjoy a meal without purusing my fellow dinners or their attire or activities with their kids. The only time I spoke to another dinner was when 4 youths were cursing loudly in a fast-food joint and they seemed to be trying to get atttention. I went over and told them to shut it up because my 4-yr-old did not need to hear their foul mouths (I did not ask or request and informed them I suspect their mama's will beat them if they hear that crude language--I asked for names and they did not feel it would be a good idea for me to call their moms). I informed them that they are being rude and I will call police if they persist. They left and got red in the face.
Linda
Linda "
After seeing all sorts of body parts on TV, at beaches, etc. It appears the flap is just, as usual, all have opinions--me too. I just ignore distasteful (to me) activities in public, unless it is disruptive to my health and well being, and enjoy life. I never thought a baby feeding was that interesting and makes me wonder why anyone is looking in the first place? Nosey is nosey, just leave others alone and do not stick your nose where it is uninvited. I could eat and enjoy a meal without purusing my fellow dinners or their attire or activities with their kids. The only time I spoke to another dinner was when 4 youths were cursing loudly in a fast-food joint and they seemed to be trying to get atttention. I went over and told them to shut it up because my 4-yr-old did not need to hear their foul mouths (I did not ask or request and informed them I suspect their mama's will beat them if they hear that crude language--I asked for names and they did not feel it would be a good idea for me to call their moms). I informed them that they are being rude and I will call police if they persist. They left and got red in the face.
Linda
Linda "
Misty Nelson wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:35 AM:
" The sole biological function of a breast is to provide sustenance for infants. Period. There is nothing obscene or indecent about it. If you find it offensive, look the other way or move to a different table! "
Veronica wrote on Jan 7, 2009 10:53 AM:
" I agree with breastfeeding. My daughter is 20 months old and still nursing. I cover up in public, but that is just me. A boob is a boob they just come in different sizes, shapes, and colors. First of all people shouldn't be looking at her breast. When they first saw what she was doing they should of gave her some privacy and respect and looked the other way. Those of you who disagree you need to ask yourself, "wouldn't you want what is best for your child." In todays society an exposed breast should be your last concern. Let's face it an exposed butt crack is way worse and far more disgusting than seeing an exposed breast. How would you like to see that while you were eating? I say quit complaining and be happy it was just a boob. One more thing, ever eat at Hooters, I haven't but what I have seen on ads and what not, they have just about the same amount of breast showing as a breast feeding mom. From what I am reading from the other comments sounds like that mother of the 7 year old needs to teach her child the manner of not staring. "
BreastfeedingMom wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:06 AM:
" For those who said the baby should be covered while nursing, you clearly have never nursed a baby who refuses to cover up. My daughter rips the blanket off, which draws more attention than if I just lift my shirt and discreetly nurse. No breastfeeding mother would be disgusted by this, so I am positive the negative comments are from bottle feeders. I feel sad for you. "
Leigha Friedlander wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:20 PM:
" What a shame, people are soo shallow, so what, she fed her child in public, what is it of your business, no mother should be ashamed of breastfeeding their child any where and if you have a problem with it then you should learn to turn away and mind your own, and if you don't like it then stay home it's people like you that make me sick. "
NYmommy wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:27 PM:
" Everyone needs to take a step back and remember why women have breasts, to feed their young. They aren't "disgusting." If you see them that way then you need to check yourself or look the other way. Newborns have a right to eat just as the rest of us do. "
mtmommy wrote on Jan 7, 2009 1:45 PM:
" I am totally disgusted by the lack of disrespect people seem to have over a mother's right to nurse her child. After all the ads that are pushed on us to feed our babies formula, here is another form of harassment! Get over it. If you have a problem with a mother nursing her child then don't look! "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 7, 2009 2:09 PM:
" Hi Jack,
Got it from the Missoulian article: "A 2007 law, says Missoula City-County health services director Julie Serstad, expanded the scope and requires all public (i.e., governmental) places of employment to provide private areas for working mothers to pump or breastfeed."
It doesn't require them to use it.
What got me into this conversation was, I couldn't resist responding to the lack of logic. But, it just keeps going on and on, only now the conversation has been degraded even further into shouting and insult. Someone was very rude to "disgusted Montanan" who has helped parent her brother's kids, because they weren't "her own"--I always thought that kind of responsibility and care was admirable, and think someone owes her an apology. I see I, with the rest of us who prefer discretion, have been accused of being closet bottle feeders--which is absurd. (That's like a little kid on the playground who has no rational response, don'tcha think?)
And as for those of you who insist breasts have no function other than feeding a baby, if you've never had sexual pleasure from your breasts, or given it, then I feel sorry for you. "
Got it from the Missoulian article: "A 2007 law, says Missoula City-County health services director Julie Serstad, expanded the scope and requires all public (i.e., governmental) places of employment to provide private areas for working mothers to pump or breastfeed."
It doesn't require them to use it.
What got me into this conversation was, I couldn't resist responding to the lack of logic. But, it just keeps going on and on, only now the conversation has been degraded even further into shouting and insult. Someone was very rude to "disgusted Montanan" who has helped parent her brother's kids, because they weren't "her own"--I always thought that kind of responsibility and care was admirable, and think someone owes her an apology. I see I, with the rest of us who prefer discretion, have been accused of being closet bottle feeders--which is absurd. (That's like a little kid on the playground who has no rational response, don'tcha think?)
And as for those of you who insist breasts have no function other than feeding a baby, if you've never had sexual pleasure from your breasts, or given it, then I feel sorry for you. "
Junior 13 wrote on Jan 7, 2009 2:12 PM:
" Is this really an issue to you people? I'd like to know how many of you people say something to people who are berating their children in public or better yet spanking their children, do any of you go up to them and say anything? But you feel you should say something about them feeding an infant. Sasha your right you people need to get your mind out of the gutter and see the breast as something other then your fetish. Come on Montana grow up!!!!!!!!!! "
Apologize to Rachel wrote on Jan 7, 2009 2:24 PM:
" I said this in my last post, but I think it needs to be emphasized. "In Defense of Sonnie" wrote
"After having raised 3 daughters & a son OF MY OWN just like many others here who have experienced the gift of breastfeeding"
I assume Rachel is helping raise kids because she's a good person, not because she's biologically responsible. I think that's admirable, and I think "OF MY OWN" is hurtful and offensive. I think you owe her an apology.
MACBofI (Making a Clean Breast of It) "
"After having raised 3 daughters & a son OF MY OWN just like many others here who have experienced the gift of breastfeeding"
I assume Rachel is helping raise kids because she's a good person, not because she's biologically responsible. I think that's admirable, and I think "OF MY OWN" is hurtful and offensive. I think you owe her an apology.
MACBofI (Making a Clean Breast of It) "
Mom of 2 wrote on Jan 7, 2009 3:00 PM:
" "I can model a conversation in case that mom is still dumbfounded:
Kid: What's that lady doing?
Mom: Feeding her baby.
The End. ""
I absolutely agree! What more is there to explain. And as for simply covering up, I agree that would be the most ideal answer. However, as a mother, and currently breastfeeding, I understand that it is not always that easy to do, especially when wearing "normal" clothes, not those designed specifically for nursing. Also, generally babies do not like to be covered up. My daughter will stop nursing, start squirming, fussing, etc. until the blanket is off. True, she could have also slipped away into the restroom to breastfeed. However, that is not alwasy ideal either when most bathrooms do not have any place for a nursing mother to sit down, other than the toilet. Now come on, that's not cool! So my thought is, she has every right to feed her child, in public, along with everyone else. Other restaurant patrons simply need to mind their own business. Enjoy their own meal, stop worrying about someone else's. And as for the employee who claimed customers were "losing their appetites" that's complete b.s. It's a breast for god's sake!?! It's not disgusting! Kudos to Ms. Atwood and all of her supporters...hippies or not. lol. "
Kid: What's that lady doing?
Mom: Feeding her baby.
The End. ""
I absolutely agree! What more is there to explain. And as for simply covering up, I agree that would be the most ideal answer. However, as a mother, and currently breastfeeding, I understand that it is not always that easy to do, especially when wearing "normal" clothes, not those designed specifically for nursing. Also, generally babies do not like to be covered up. My daughter will stop nursing, start squirming, fussing, etc. until the blanket is off. True, she could have also slipped away into the restroom to breastfeed. However, that is not alwasy ideal either when most bathrooms do not have any place for a nursing mother to sit down, other than the toilet. Now come on, that's not cool! So my thought is, she has every right to feed her child, in public, along with everyone else. Other restaurant patrons simply need to mind their own business. Enjoy their own meal, stop worrying about someone else's. And as for the employee who claimed customers were "losing their appetites" that's complete b.s. It's a breast for god's sake!?! It's not disgusting! Kudos to Ms. Atwood and all of her supporters...hippies or not. lol. "
Almitra wrote on Jan 7, 2009 4:47 PM:
" Kudos to you Ms. Atwood!
I think the next time I see some woman giving her baby a bottle of formula, I'm going to berate her for being a horrible person. How dare she feed her baby that garbage in front of other people? She should at least have the courtesy of abusing her child in private. It's just offensive. Oh and while we are being ignorant. That pregnant woman should not be wearing anything that exposes her pregnant belly especially if she doesn't have a ring on. I don't wanna have to explain that to my child!
Grow up people! Ms. Atwood is creating a beautiful human being that will always be comforted by her presence, reassured and confident in his abilities, not to mention healthier than most of his formula-fed peers.
This country can use more people that get enough "lap time". "
I think the next time I see some woman giving her baby a bottle of formula, I'm going to berate her for being a horrible person. How dare she feed her baby that garbage in front of other people? She should at least have the courtesy of abusing her child in private. It's just offensive. Oh and while we are being ignorant. That pregnant woman should not be wearing anything that exposes her pregnant belly especially if she doesn't have a ring on. I don't wanna have to explain that to my child!
Grow up people! Ms. Atwood is creating a beautiful human being that will always be comforted by her presence, reassured and confident in his abilities, not to mention healthier than most of his formula-fed peers.
This country can use more people that get enough "lap time". "
Pear wrote on Jan 7, 2009 6:09 PM:
" It hink the person who said "“You can go to the bathroom or another more private place,” is completely ridiculous.
No adult would consent to eating in a freakin' bathroom - so why should a child?!?! "
No adult would consent to eating in a freakin' bathroom - so why should a child?!?! "
Lucy wrote on Jan 7, 2009 7:29 PM:
" COVER UP! While I'm at a nice and fancy dinner, I've lost my appetite while someone has their boob hanging out across from me. My sister exposes her boobs while breastfeeding and it just isn't classy and if you ask, it makes most men feel uncomfortable. Whats the harm in covering up. "
Dmon wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:08 PM:
" We are mammals. Mammals are fed from the mother's mammeries. Accept it. "
Mother in MT wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:21 PM:
" I HAVE to respond to the last comment that I read from "Almitra". I am furious that you would imply that mothers who feed their children bottles and formula are bad mothers. Do you have your head buried in the sand? Have you ever heard of mastalgia, mastitis, plugged ducts, lack of milk supply, etc.? I happened to have those symptoms when I was breastfeeding my son and was unable to produce enough milk for him. So, I had to give him formula and bottles. Either you aren't a mother, or you are so ignorant you have never heard of these medical cases. To also suggest that children who aren't breast fed aren't held enough or don't get enough "lap time" (as you call it) is also very ignorant. I am a stay at home mom and my son gets ALL the cuddle time he could ever want! Another thing, I did expose my belly when I was pregnant, ring and all! I didn't, however, expose my breasts with the excuse that, "They were ready to breastfeed and they are a natural part of the human body." Whether we like it or not, that part of the human anatomy IS sexualized and should not HAVE to be explained to someone's 7 year old. If someone wants to teach their child about the human body, it should be by their own choosing and not through someone else's indecency! "
Rachel wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:26 PM:
" MACBofI~Thank you for your support. That means a lot to me, especially after I was being accused of being abusive, yet I'm being verbally attacked.
Ok, here goes...
I find it hilarious that I am the being told I am ignorant for not supporting women who breastfeed. Funny thing is, I totally support women who breastfeed, and that is not at all what the original article, nor the comments where about. It all boils down to the fact of a women, breastfeeding or not, exposing her breast in a public restaurant. For some reason, everyone on here keeps thinking this conversation has to do with breastfeeding versus not breastfeeding. NOT EVEN THE ISSUE!!! You are all so wrapped up in your own opinion on that subject to even realize it was a discussion about modesty and respect for those around you.
And yes, it's not just about the breastfeeding issue. I as well don't care to see some guys underwear sticking out of his jeans, because his pants are hanging off of his butt. I also think that is rude, sloppy, and disrescpectful.
By the way, Leona, you must have an amazing 2 year old for your child to carry on the conversation you described to me. Please excuse me if I would rather wait til my non-existent children, and the ones I have helped my brother raise, are a little bit older until I have to have a discussion about the birds and bees with them. "
Ok, here goes...
I find it hilarious that I am the being told I am ignorant for not supporting women who breastfeed. Funny thing is, I totally support women who breastfeed, and that is not at all what the original article, nor the comments where about. It all boils down to the fact of a women, breastfeeding or not, exposing her breast in a public restaurant. For some reason, everyone on here keeps thinking this conversation has to do with breastfeeding versus not breastfeeding. NOT EVEN THE ISSUE!!! You are all so wrapped up in your own opinion on that subject to even realize it was a discussion about modesty and respect for those around you.
And yes, it's not just about the breastfeeding issue. I as well don't care to see some guys underwear sticking out of his jeans, because his pants are hanging off of his butt. I also think that is rude, sloppy, and disrescpectful.
By the way, Leona, you must have an amazing 2 year old for your child to carry on the conversation you described to me. Please excuse me if I would rather wait til my non-existent children, and the ones I have helped my brother raise, are a little bit older until I have to have a discussion about the birds and bees with them. "
Liora wrote on Jan 8, 2009 4:09 AM:
" A 20 day old baby- mom dyad are still adjusting to nursing. Trying to juggle a cover over a squirmy baby who may be having other nursing problems on top of it all is really asking too much of them both. New moms really have to observe the baby's latch, and maneuver yourself or the baby sometimes.
People, if you don't want to see it you have necks so you can turn your heads. She wasn't up on a podium, she was in a booth at a restaurant- get over it. They were well within what the law in Montana specifies.
This is how babies eat, this is what breasts are FOR anyhow. "
People, if you don't want to see it you have necks so you can turn your heads. She wasn't up on a podium, she was in a booth at a restaurant- get over it. They were well within what the law in Montana specifies.
This is how babies eat, this is what breasts are FOR anyhow. "
Joanna Smetanka wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:10 AM:
" I can't believe that we as mothers, have to defend our right to do what is best for our babies! If you don't want to see it, don't look. It's that simple. And, what is so disgusting about a breast? Believe it or not, feeding babies is what our breasts were designed for. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 8, 2009 10:20 AM:
" Not only has almost everyone here voiced their support of breastfeeding or breastfed themselves, the conversation is also not about usual breast exposure. It's about if it's OK to pull down your top and show your whole bigger-than-the-baby's-head breast, consciously choosing (with sister's advice) not to cover in a public restaurant (read the article), or if it's better to be a little courteous. Those of us who think courteous is better are, it seems, being intentionally misunderstood. Yes, she was legally within her rights. A lot of other rude behaviors are legal too. As a woman who not only breastfed but was a strong and early proponent of breastfeeding, I'm happy that you're doing it. I just don't appreciate your public portrayal of breastfeeding women. "
James Moore wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:09 PM:
" Here is the reason I do not agree with breastfeeding in public. I can not handle seeing it, especially while I am enjoying my dinner. Now it's not for the reason many of you are thinking, with me, it is a fetish. I am serius about this, watching women breast feed is a major turn on, because of that I am not able to enjoy my dinner. I will be suprised, if this article is posted, but I had to say my peace. Moreover, women breastfeeding in public is a big reason I don't go to the Good Food Store, I always see women breastfeeding in their cars. I try to ignore it, but I always find my self staring, and it makes me and the breastfeeding mother very uncomfortable. So to the guy who wrote it's a natural thing, is it not natural for a man to view a women as potential mate. Thats all I am doing when I watch women breastfeed. Personally, I find that a women with large succulent breast, can provide sufficient milk to thier child as well as mental stimulation to a mate such as myself. It's no different then a man choosing a mate based on intelligence. "
Jennie wrote on Jan 8, 2009 11:45 PM:
" Holy cow! Errr, bigger than the baby's head? Those are some big milk machines! Go bold mama! "
Kella wrote on Jan 9, 2009 7:51 AM:
" After reading this story, I thought to myself, who are these people who think breastfeeding is so nasty and horrible. How were they raised? I am a breastfeeding mom and am very proud of it. I do however cover up when nursing in a public place as I feel that there are still ignorant people out there that would be upset about me doing something that should be natural. Therefore, for those that don't understand, it is good that you either don't have children or don't want any especially if you feel this is gross. Grow up. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 9, 2009 10:47 AM:
" James: Thanks for posting. An honest addition to the conversation, and I'm sure you're not alone.
Kelia: I think breastfeeding is a little on the personal side. Do you think everything "private" is Nasty and Horrible? If you read carefully you'll see the people here who have expressed that opinion are by far in the minority. I think some of you are projecting, which I find very interesting. Step One: Denial. No, it's not in any way sexual, the only function is feeding. Step Two: Project "nasty, horrible, deviant," whatever, on your captive audience. Very entertaining.
Just a little common courtesy. You expect that of the public; you should hold yourself to the same standard. "
Kelia: I think breastfeeding is a little on the personal side. Do you think everything "private" is Nasty and Horrible? If you read carefully you'll see the people here who have expressed that opinion are by far in the minority. I think some of you are projecting, which I find very interesting. Step One: Denial. No, it's not in any way sexual, the only function is feeding. Step Two: Project "nasty, horrible, deviant," whatever, on your captive audience. Very entertaining.
Just a little common courtesy. You expect that of the public; you should hold yourself to the same standard. "
scarred for life wrote on Jan 9, 2009 11:05 AM:
" When I was about six years old, I was in the presence of a woman nursing a baby with her breasts completely exposed. My mother explained it to me but that vision still haunts me to this day. If you choose to (and can) breast feed, great! However, a little discretion in public is not too much to ask. "
Mom of 5 wrote on Jan 9, 2009 11:08 AM:
" I breastfeed all 5 of my children discreetly in many public place, most people had no idea what I was doing. It was better than having a screaming baby. I am amazed at the comments of not wanting see a boob. Do any these same people have a concerned with style of tops women wear today which show a lot of cleavage and a lot of "boob"? I have never seen an article complaining about these styles. Yet a mom nursing a baby brings a cry of improper behavior and dress? One does not have to watch what's going on at another table, instead pay attention to the food, drink and dinner companions at one's own table. I see a distinct double standard in our society. "
Peamommy wrote on Jan 9, 2009 8:51 PM:
" Disgusted Montanan- I just want to make sure I understood your point. You're concerned that your child might ask more questions about breastfeeding & that will some how rob him or her of their innocence? Is that right?
As for what memories a child has at 20 days- you're missing the point. Why should the baby be hot or unable to see mom because people at other tables (who should be minding their own business) may be uncomfortable? The baby has little means to process or understand what's happening, the uncomfortable adults do. The uncomfortable adults need to take steps to insure their comfortable (look away & mind their business) the baby needs to eat. "
As for what memories a child has at 20 days- you're missing the point. Why should the baby be hot or unable to see mom because people at other tables (who should be minding their own business) may be uncomfortable? The baby has little means to process or understand what's happening, the uncomfortable adults do. The uncomfortable adults need to take steps to insure their comfortable (look away & mind their business) the baby needs to eat. "
Heather wrote on Jan 10, 2009 12:50 PM:
" I was born and raised in MT, and unfortunately had to move in 1995. At that time, Missoula was a very liberal, Natural is best, kind of community. What the heck happened? I am so appalled by those who look at breastfeeding a baby as disgusting or sexual. What did mothers do before the invention of baby bottles? What did they tell their older children? I mean, COME ON PEOPLE WAKE UP!!! This is the 21st century, and we seem to have forgotten that people are capable of still doing things the natural way. God forbid that a woman still breast feed, when there are so many unhealthy options such as artificial breast milk known as Formula. Give me a break here. I breastfed my kids in the 80's and only had one complaint. I told the lady if she didn't like it, she didn't have to look, and no, I was not going to sit in a stinky mall bathroom to feed my baby. The AMA now reccomends women breast feed for the first 6 months of an infants life, because they realized nature is better than artificial. I did figure out a way to keep my breast covered without having to cover the baby. I simply wore shirts that I could pull up, so the shirt would cover the exposed portion. This child is 20 days old. She's just figuring out the clothes issue. Good grief, people are amazingly intolerant these days. "
M_D wrote on Jan 11, 2009 12:55 PM:
" I couldn't resist responding to the lack of logic here. Concerning mothers covering up, research the attitudes from other countries for some perspective. In Europe, images of female breasts are commonplace. Females are generally free to be topfree as men are. In many countries breastfeeding in public with fully exposed breasts is not an issue. In this country where the breasts are highly sexualized by some, we have poor statistics regarding sexual diseases, teenage pregnancy, and breastfeeding. Does our attitude make this country a better place? No.
People exposed to female breasts from a young age do not grow up with the obsession we cultivate here in the USA. Female nipples, inner thighs, lips, and etc. may be sexually pleasurable as one poster put it, so are men’s, yet we pick and choose what is acceptable to view. Ironically, “Christian” thinking has wrongfully made this society perverted about the subject. More ironically is non-Christian cultures in general did not view breasts as “sexual”. Ones that do view the breast as sexual were “taught” that by the missionaries. The bible does not support those teachings; they took it upon themselves to distort nature and truth.
Rendering female breasts taboo is pointless; it only creates and supports issues which are harmful to society. Those that loose their appetite or object the mother wasn’t covered enough reveal inner issues that could be corrected with effort and understanding. That would be the superior solution. "
People exposed to female breasts from a young age do not grow up with the obsession we cultivate here in the USA. Female nipples, inner thighs, lips, and etc. may be sexually pleasurable as one poster put it, so are men’s, yet we pick and choose what is acceptable to view. Ironically, “Christian” thinking has wrongfully made this society perverted about the subject. More ironically is non-Christian cultures in general did not view breasts as “sexual”. Ones that do view the breast as sexual were “taught” that by the missionaries. The bible does not support those teachings; they took it upon themselves to distort nature and truth.
Rendering female breasts taboo is pointless; it only creates and supports issues which are harmful to society. Those that loose their appetite or object the mother wasn’t covered enough reveal inner issues that could be corrected with effort and understanding. That would be the superior solution. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 11, 2009 3:31 PM:
" @M_D - If you're going to claim to be logical you need to base your thesis on facts and provide evidence. Please, your source for this statement: that in Europe, "Females are generally free to be topfree as men are." Then, "In many countries breastfeeding in public with fully exposed breasts is not an issue." First, evidence. Second, can you tell us what might be the differences in the culture, climate, and economics of those countries--all of these are important factors. If you don't address them your argument can be made worthless--illogical, in fact--in a hurry.
And, define "sexual" and "sexualized." They are entirely different concepts.
I don't think you know what logic is. In a logical argument, your conclusion must proceed from valid premises. That includes facts with evidence. Then your facts have to prove your conclusion. Can you prove--or even show a shred of real evidence--that "sexualizing" breasts creates teenage pregnancy, etc.? No? I didn't think so.
Modesty has much more to do with respect for self and others than it has to do with shame, and I think you would be hard pressed to prove, logically, that courtesy and discretion "reveal[s] inner issues." "
And, define "sexual" and "sexualized." They are entirely different concepts.
I don't think you know what logic is. In a logical argument, your conclusion must proceed from valid premises. That includes facts with evidence. Then your facts have to prove your conclusion. Can you prove--or even show a shred of real evidence--that "sexualizing" breasts creates teenage pregnancy, etc.? No? I didn't think so.
Modesty has much more to do with respect for self and others than it has to do with shame, and I think you would be hard pressed to prove, logically, that courtesy and discretion "reveal[s] inner issues." "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 11, 2009 7:06 PM:
" Just to elaborate further....M_D says that there are many countries where feeding with fully exposed breasts is accepteable, and then s/he says that "in this country where the breasts are highly sexualized by some, we have poor statistics regarding sexual diseases, teenage pregnancy." She concludes that we might not have those problems if we didn't make the breast taboo.
Sub Saharan Africa, which is one of the places s/he might well be referring to, has something like a 95% breast feeding rate. It also has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the world--which is the leading cause of death in women 15-19. There's an HIV epidemic there too. Did that come from exposing breasts?? Nooo. But M_D's "logic" would work that way.
So please. If you're going to "respond to lack of logic," start with your own. And what got you started on Christianity, anyway? I don't believe anyone here has come close to mentioning religion as a reason to cover up. "
Sub Saharan Africa, which is one of the places s/he might well be referring to, has something like a 95% breast feeding rate. It also has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the world--which is the leading cause of death in women 15-19. There's an HIV epidemic there too. Did that come from exposing breasts?? Nooo. But M_D's "logic" would work that way.
So please. If you're going to "respond to lack of logic," start with your own. And what got you started on Christianity, anyway? I don't believe anyone here has come close to mentioning religion as a reason to cover up. "
Grizzle wrote on Jan 12, 2009 12:20 PM:
" Things that I find offensive/improper in public:
-Immodest clothing
-Foul Language
-Seeing/smelling someone smoking pot
-Men/Women holding hands/kissing
-People who CHOOSE to beg for money rather than work (note-I am not painting all homeless and downtrodden with the same brush, just those who CHOOSE that lifestyle.)
-"Hippie stink
-People who don't clean up after their animals
-Parents who spank their children
-Parents who take young children to R rated movies
-And many other things
How do I approach being confronted on some of these on a daily basis? I don't worry about it so much and let others live their lives the way they choose. The world would be a much happier place if we all just practiced a little more tolerance...
Speaking of which MD-in two articles and hundreds of comments, I believe you are the first person to throw down the "Christians are to blame" card. I just have to point out that using phrases like "Christian thinking" to support your belief rationale that "Christians" are to blame for a prudish society is just as hurtful as I imagine it is when "non-Christians" are blamed for the world's problems. We can't all be painted with the same brush. I for instance am a Christian who couldn't care less if someone breastfed in public, but, like other things, if it did bother me, I would mind my own business and let others mind their's. "
-Immodest clothing
-Foul Language
-Seeing/smelling someone smoking pot
-Men/Women holding hands/kissing
-People who CHOOSE to beg for money rather than work (note-I am not painting all homeless and downtrodden with the same brush, just those who CHOOSE that lifestyle.)
-"Hippie stink
-People who don't clean up after their animals
-Parents who spank their children
-Parents who take young children to R rated movies
-And many other things
How do I approach being confronted on some of these on a daily basis? I don't worry about it so much and let others live their lives the way they choose. The world would be a much happier place if we all just practiced a little more tolerance...
Speaking of which MD-in two articles and hundreds of comments, I believe you are the first person to throw down the "Christians are to blame" card. I just have to point out that using phrases like "Christian thinking" to support your belief rationale that "Christians" are to blame for a prudish society is just as hurtful as I imagine it is when "non-Christians" are blamed for the world's problems. We can't all be painted with the same brush. I for instance am a Christian who couldn't care less if someone breastfed in public, but, like other things, if it did bother me, I would mind my own business and let others mind their's. "
M_D wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:36 PM:
" MCABofit, regarding your request for proof of topfreedom in Europe and mothers freely exposing entire breasts in other places while breastfeeding, I have witnessed what I said innumerable times. What proof do you desire, pictures? Censorship in the USA makes this seem unbelievable, so research it and see for yourself. These are examples of what I and others believe to be better adjusted attitudes.
Re: “evolution has made breasts sexual.” No, select cultures have sexualized them. In traditional cultures where bare breasts are/were normal, those people rarely consider[ed] them sexual, although they do tend to find us an anomaly. They might view ankles, thighs and buttocks as sexual, depending on the culture. A majority if not all of the world’s cultures once considered bare breasts acceptable.
You misunderstood last time, I’ll try again. This country has made the display of breasts taboo under the guise of protecting people. Our statistics for teen pregnancy and diseases associated with sexual promiscuity aren’t better, and are often worse compared to places that do not practice our breast taboo but are otherwise close to us culturally and have similar medical resources, (e.g. Australia, France, Spain, Germany, Africa is not what I had in mind). Research the statistics from WHO (World Health Organization). I didn’t say covering breasts made these issues worse, rather it apparently doesn’t help. Is there really anything significant gain that makes keeping a woman’s chest covered such a high priority?
Continued in next post. "
Re: “evolution has made breasts sexual.” No, select cultures have sexualized them. In traditional cultures where bare breasts are/were normal, those people rarely consider[ed] them sexual, although they do tend to find us an anomaly. They might view ankles, thighs and buttocks as sexual, depending on the culture. A majority if not all of the world’s cultures once considered bare breasts acceptable.
You misunderstood last time, I’ll try again. This country has made the display of breasts taboo under the guise of protecting people. Our statistics for teen pregnancy and diseases associated with sexual promiscuity aren’t better, and are often worse compared to places that do not practice our breast taboo but are otherwise close to us culturally and have similar medical resources, (e.g. Australia, France, Spain, Germany, Africa is not what I had in mind). Research the statistics from WHO (World Health Organization). I didn’t say covering breasts made these issues worse, rather it apparently doesn’t help. Is there really anything significant gain that makes keeping a woman’s chest covered such a high priority?
Continued in next post. "
M_D wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:37 PM:
" MCABofit, where you may have gotten confused was this statement I made: “Rendering female breasts taboo is pointless; it only creates and supports issues which are harmful to society.” Some of the harmful things are: women who are hesitant to breastfeed, those who do frequently receive disapproval, and often go to unnecessary lengths to avoid confrontation. Some women are willing to go the extra mile, but they should not have to. So, it is not surprising that many women choose not to breastfeed, which places additional demands on them to keep up with the bottle routine. Their family has less time, the healthcare system statistically will see the child more often, and those who pay for it loose too. In addition, some women carry so much shame regarding that part of their body they deny themselves proper medical care.
It is true that all Christians do not believe the same and I apologize if I offended anyone, but that does not negate the fact that certain groups (not all) of “Christians” have indeed been largely responsible for the sensitivity over female breasts in this country. "
It is true that all Christians do not believe the same and I apologize if I offended anyone, but that does not negate the fact that certain groups (not all) of “Christians” have indeed been largely responsible for the sensitivity over female breasts in this country. "
Grizzle wrote on Jan 12, 2009 11:49 PM:
" Mac, I haven't lived around these parts for very long, so I will be the first to admit that perhaps its not the proper lingo. That's what I just hear it most often referred to as, by some seemingly as a term of endearment. So, yeah, fine, whatever, I'm an crotchety old curmudgeon. How about we change "Hippie Stink" to "People who don't shower." Or we can get a bit more PC and say "the hygienically challenged." Either way, you missed the mark. My point was what may be offensive to some is not offensive to others, and we can all be a lot happier if we just live and let live. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 13, 2009 10:41 AM:
" M-D, who professes logic:
Re European toplessness. Proof: Hearsay (your observations) is hardly proof. Crying "censorship" is a bit disingenuous when we have the internet. How about some credible websites with statistics? You have put forth the argument; the burden of proof is on you.
What "you and others believe" about attitude is of little interest to the argument unless you are authorities on the subject, and you can prove it.
You're still utterly in the dark about the difference between sexual (think biological) and sexualized. I would suggest a dictionary. A medical dictionary couldn't hurt either.
I don't think I misunderstood. You are implying a connection between non breast exposure and low teen pregnancy, STDs, etc. Other countries, you say, expose breasts and they have better numbers. I think you said that pretty clearly. Now, do you think there are other factors that might account for that Like, a WAY better health care system, for instance?? just for starts. But thinking that way would take the use of logic.
As for, "I didn't mean Africa," your post said that in Europe...etc., and then "There are countries..." etc. which implied you were discussing Europe, and then other countries. (Also continued next post.) "
Re European toplessness. Proof: Hearsay (your observations) is hardly proof. Crying "censorship" is a bit disingenuous when we have the internet. How about some credible websites with statistics? You have put forth the argument; the burden of proof is on you.
What "you and others believe" about attitude is of little interest to the argument unless you are authorities on the subject, and you can prove it.
You're still utterly in the dark about the difference between sexual (think biological) and sexualized. I would suggest a dictionary. A medical dictionary couldn't hurt either.
I don't think I misunderstood. You are implying a connection between non breast exposure and low teen pregnancy, STDs, etc. Other countries, you say, expose breasts and they have better numbers. I think you said that pretty clearly. Now, do you think there are other factors that might account for that Like, a WAY better health care system, for instance?? just for starts. But thinking that way would take the use of logic.
As for, "I didn't mean Africa," your post said that in Europe...etc., and then "There are countries..." etc. which implied you were discussing Europe, and then other countries. (Also continued next post.) "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 13, 2009 10:51 AM:
" M-D, cont.
I totally agree with all the health and wellness issues concerning breastfeeding. You didn't mention them in your last two posts. (You preferred to go off on an unproveable tangent instead.)
Two things: 1. You ask, is there anything to be gained by covering the chest?
Well, maybe a little courtesy, which is what this conversation has largely been about. Do you think that if breastfeeding women and the public could reach a mutually acceptable social more about breastfeeding, it might actually encourage breastfeeding? Is it possible that insisting on flaunting the whole mammary is unhelpful in that regard? Note: those are two separate questions!
For a worldview of breastfeeding, check out this website. http://www.007b.com/public-breastfeeding-world.php
If you can manage to take an objective look, you'll be surprised at how many women, in how many countries (including Europe), say, I'm discreet. I cover up. "
I totally agree with all the health and wellness issues concerning breastfeeding. You didn't mention them in your last two posts. (You preferred to go off on an unproveable tangent instead.)
Two things: 1. You ask, is there anything to be gained by covering the chest?
Well, maybe a little courtesy, which is what this conversation has largely been about. Do you think that if breastfeeding women and the public could reach a mutually acceptable social more about breastfeeding, it might actually encourage breastfeeding? Is it possible that insisting on flaunting the whole mammary is unhelpful in that regard? Note: those are two separate questions!
For a worldview of breastfeeding, check out this website. http://www.007b.com/public-breastfeeding-world.php
If you can manage to take an objective look, you'll be surprised at how many women, in how many countries (including Europe), say, I'm discreet. I cover up. "
MACBofIt wrote on Jan 13, 2009 10:53 AM:
" Grizzle:
I didn't miss the mark any more than you missed the mark when you defended Christians. Same thing. "
I didn't miss the mark any more than you missed the mark when you defended Christians. Same thing. "
Juanita Harris wrote on Jan 13, 2009 11:04 AM:
" The problem with everyone here complaining about how disgusting breast feeding is or rude or otherwise unsightly is that thanks to the extreme groups who think the manner in which we were born is a sin or an abomination, can't handle seeing a breast as anything as a sin, abomination or titilating object. What the hell is wrong with you people?? Women have been breastfeeding since the dawn of time. This is not an issue of women exposing themselves, it's an issue of how prudish our society has become that we can't even handle the NECESSITY of a woman feeding her child!! This is a complete NON-ISSUE. Grow the hell up!! "
M_D wrote on Jan 13, 2009 9:02 PM:
" MACBofIt, I think you like to argue. If two apples were set in front of you, I imagine you would ask for proof that they were apples, and that there were two of them.
Re: your link. I found that site a few years ago, it is good. I said do some research and it looks like you’re off to a good start, there is plenty more if you keep looking. Some excerpts from there:
“European women commonly go topless on beaches………...”
“I lived in Peru for almost 2 years 95-96 and viewed literally hundreds of breastfeeding women in public. It is so commonplace most people don't even notice. When the sight of a woman's breast is commonplace from the time you are a small child, the taboo and awe of the breast is lost…………”
You essentially called me a liar, and attempted to be demeaning for what I related witnessing in my travels. You also stated what I said is “[sic]unproveable.” Can MACBofit prove that assertion? You really need to read more carefully and examine your own logic.
I stated my experiences and gave some alternative ideas based on other cultures, and mentioned things people might want to consider. You need to prove for yourself, but please educate yourself with all available facts and consider them before challenging everything.
Bye. "
Re: your link. I found that site a few years ago, it is good. I said do some research and it looks like you’re off to a good start, there is plenty more if you keep looking. Some excerpts from there:
“European women commonly go topless on beaches………...”
“I lived in Peru for almost 2 years 95-96 and viewed literally hundreds of breastfeeding women in public. It is so commonplace most people don't even notice. When the sight of a woman's breast is commonplace from the time you are a small child, the taboo and awe of the breast is lost…………”
You essentially called me a liar, and attempted to be demeaning for what I related witnessing in my travels. You also stated what I said is “[sic]unproveable.” Can MACBofit prove that assertion? You really need to read more carefully and examine your own logic.
I stated my experiences and gave some alternative ideas based on other cultures, and mentioned things people might want to consider. You need to prove for yourself, but please educate yourself with all available facts and consider them before challenging everything.
Bye. "
macboit wrote on Jan 14, 2009 10:57 AM:
" M_D, it's not that I like to argue, it's that you like to be right and you don't want to facts to interfere with your opinion, which is (at least for you) kind of tragic.
About the page I gave you, how interesting you don't quote the site's owner on its main page about public breastfeeding: "It is good to be discreet in presence of others if you know they might be offended by your breastfeeding - which is true if you are nursing in public." Nor did you quote the hundreds of women in many countries who made a point of their discretion. Nope, you just took my research, picked something to support your assertion while ignoring everything else, and said, Bye, like a two-year-old. Pretty sad.
I think critical (logical) thinking is one of the most important life skills. You ought to think about working on yours. "
About the page I gave you, how interesting you don't quote the site's owner on its main page about public breastfeeding: "It is good to be discreet in presence of others if you know they might be offended by your breastfeeding - which is true if you are nursing in public." Nor did you quote the hundreds of women in many countries who made a point of their discretion. Nope, you just took my research, picked something to support your assertion while ignoring everything else, and said, Bye, like a two-year-old. Pretty sad.
I think critical (logical) thinking is one of the most important life skills. You ought to think about working on yours. "
macboit wrote on Jan 14, 2009 11:12 AM:
" And by the way, if you can make any kind of an argument showing that breast exposure will reduce STDs and teen pregnancy and make us all psychologically more fit as well, I'd be delighted to hear it. Seriously. Why don't you give it a shot? And thanks for catching my typo in "proveable." Glad to see you can spell. "
Farmer Tom wrote on Jan 18, 2009 10:51 AM:
" Holy cow! Go breastfeed *in the bathroom*? I'd suggest that the offended diner take his steak into the bathroom and eat it there!
The US has a rotten rate of breastfeeding, and given the comments of some dopes like the ones cited above, it's easy to see why.
Luckily, only two states remain where a mother's right to breastfeed remains unprotected. Anywhere else, the law is on her side and the side of her child. Anyone uncomfortable with public breastfeeding should either get over it, or else stay out of public places. "
The US has a rotten rate of breastfeeding, and given the comments of some dopes like the ones cited above, it's easy to see why.
Luckily, only two states remain where a mother's right to breastfeed remains unprotected. Anywhere else, the law is on her side and the side of her child. Anyone uncomfortable with public breastfeeding should either get over it, or else stay out of public places. "
Mt Golfer wrote on Jan 6, 2009 7:05 AM:
A couple of my family members were breastfeeding at Thanksgiving and Christmas get-togethers. The simple use of a blanket, shawl, etc does the trick.
Seems the mother in the article has an agenda beyond a healthy meal for her child. "