For him to say that most large forest fires are “climate/weather driven events,” not fuel-driven, is typical of the thought process of the Environmental Cartel of the West. The enviros have created a nice industry for themselves, only to destroy the forests and the timber industry in the process. For more than 35 years we have allowed them to control the forests. Look what we got - overgrown forests dying and burning, emitting carbon dioxide and methane. When a thinned, healthy forest is allowed to exist, it absorbs CO2, bottom line.
He goes on to talk about the erosive power on the land caused by logging. What he doesn’t tell you about is the erosive power fire plays on the land. Just drive down the Bitterroot and go up Laird Creek and see for yourself. Under the enviros’ homemade and biased science, we have seen our forests die from overcrowding and fire.
Hopefully it’s not too late for sane and reasonable thinking people to take back our forests!
Dean Skaja, Missoula
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George Wuerthner wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:00 AM:
" Dean:
Most of the land burned in the West are lands that are "managed" and "logged".
You are not interested in science, so I won't try to persuade you that fires differ substantially from logging in many ways, including not surprisingly in sediment flow--basically sedimentation from fires is a quick pulse that returns to pre fire conditions quickly, while logging creates on-going sources of sedimentation that are chronic in nature.
But if you spent a little time going around to view fires as I have done for years, you'll discover that much of the acreage that has burned are lands that were previously logged and managed forests.If our forests are overgrown, burning up, etc. it's not because they haven't had the "benefit" of logging and management. Need I say more? "
Most of the land burned in the West are lands that are "managed" and "logged".
You are not interested in science, so I won't try to persuade you that fires differ substantially from logging in many ways, including not surprisingly in sediment flow--basically sedimentation from fires is a quick pulse that returns to pre fire conditions quickly, while logging creates on-going sources of sedimentation that are chronic in nature.
But if you spent a little time going around to view fires as I have done for years, you'll discover that much of the acreage that has burned are lands that were previously logged and managed forests.If our forests are overgrown, burning up, etc. it's not because they haven't had the "benefit" of logging and management. Need I say more? "
Kitty wrote on Jan 7, 2009 9:22 AM:
" GW,
If you were a true Montanan you wouldn't be so certain you know more than this letter's author (as well as others). Your spending time 'viewing' fires doesn't make you any kind of expert - but it does help sell your books. Perhaps its time to listen to those folks who work every single day in the woods and forests and have generations of expertise to guide them. "
If you were a true Montanan you wouldn't be so certain you know more than this letter's author (as well as others). Your spending time 'viewing' fires doesn't make you any kind of expert - but it does help sell your books. Perhaps its time to listen to those folks who work every single day in the woods and forests and have generations of expertise to guide them. "
Matthew Koehler wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:13 AM:
" Dean Skaja, who works at Smurfit-Stone Container, wants "science" returned to national forest management.
I could not agree more and that's what the environmental community has been trying to accomplish for years now.
Unfortunately and ironically, Mr. Skaja offers zero scientific evidence in his rant against Mr. Wuerthner. Rather, Mr. Skaja says some things that are outright refuted by current scientific understanding and research. Perhaps Mr. Skaja should read the following:
Multi-Season Climate Synchronized Forest Fires Throughout the 20th Century @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/Morgan_et_al_2008.pdf
From the Abstract: "Regional-fire years were ones when warm springs were followed by warm, dry summers.... Spring snowpack was likely reduced during warm springs...resulting in longer fire seasons....The long mid-20th century period lacking regional-fire years (1935–1987) had generally cool springs, generally negative PDO, and a lack of extremely dry summers....The climate drivers of regionally synchronous fire that we inferred are congruent with those of previous centuries in this region, suggesting a strong influence of spring and summer climate on fire activity throughout the 20th century despite major land-use change and fire suppression efforts. The relatively cool, moist climate during the mid-century gap in regional-fire years likely contributed to the success of fire suppression during that period. In every regional-fire year, fires burned across a range of vegetation types. Given our results and the projections for warmer springs and continued warm, dry summers, forests of the U.S. northern Rockies are likely to experience synchronous, large fires in the future." "
I could not agree more and that's what the environmental community has been trying to accomplish for years now.
Unfortunately and ironically, Mr. Skaja offers zero scientific evidence in his rant against Mr. Wuerthner. Rather, Mr. Skaja says some things that are outright refuted by current scientific understanding and research. Perhaps Mr. Skaja should read the following:
Multi-Season Climate Synchronized Forest Fires Throughout the 20th Century @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/Morgan_et_al_2008.pdf
From the Abstract: "Regional-fire years were ones when warm springs were followed by warm, dry summers.... Spring snowpack was likely reduced during warm springs...resulting in longer fire seasons....The long mid-20th century period lacking regional-fire years (1935–1987) had generally cool springs, generally negative PDO, and a lack of extremely dry summers....The climate drivers of regionally synchronous fire that we inferred are congruent with those of previous centuries in this region, suggesting a strong influence of spring and summer climate on fire activity throughout the 20th century despite major land-use change and fire suppression efforts. The relatively cool, moist climate during the mid-century gap in regional-fire years likely contributed to the success of fire suppression during that period. In every regional-fire year, fires burned across a range of vegetation types. Given our results and the projections for warmer springs and continued warm, dry summers, forests of the U.S. northern Rockies are likely to experience synchronous, large fires in the future." "
Matthew Koehler wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:22 AM:
" Mr. Skaja, Here is some more light scientific reading for you.
Also, I believe Kitty is Ellen Simpson, Executive Vice President of the Montana Wood Products Association. Regardless, Kitty, George attended the University of Montana, where I'm positive he took more science and ecology classes then either you or Mr. Skaja. And Mr. Wuerthner also lived in Montana for a number of years. Your "real Montanan" thing makes you look pretty stupid...especially considering it's the 21st Century and these are public lands we are talking about.
Re-examining fire severity relations in pre-management era mixed conifer forests: inferences from landscape patterns of forest structure @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/reexamining_fire.pdf
An environmental narrative of Inland Northwest United States forests, 1800–2000 @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/Hessburg.pdf
Fire, fuels and restoration of ponderosa pine–Douglas fir forests in the Rocky Mountains, USA @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/Baker_et_al_online.pdf "
Also, I believe Kitty is Ellen Simpson, Executive Vice President of the Montana Wood Products Association. Regardless, Kitty, George attended the University of Montana, where I'm positive he took more science and ecology classes then either you or Mr. Skaja. And Mr. Wuerthner also lived in Montana for a number of years. Your "real Montanan" thing makes you look pretty stupid...especially considering it's the 21st Century and these are public lands we are talking about.
Re-examining fire severity relations in pre-management era mixed conifer forests: inferences from landscape patterns of forest structure @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/reexamining_fire.pdf
An environmental narrative of Inland Northwest United States forests, 1800–2000 @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/Hessburg.pdf
Fire, fuels and restoration of ponderosa pine–Douglas fir forests in the Rocky Mountains, USA @
http://www.wildwestinstitute.org/pdf/Baker_et_al_online.pdf "
logger wrote on Jan 7, 2009 11:35 AM:
" If Mr. Wuerthner has spent so much time on fires, then surly he's seen that regenerated clearcuts don't burn. You can see this phenomenon on the Brush Creek Fire west of Whitefish. 40% of the forest within the burn perimeter survived, and 90% of that was regenerated clearcuts. The USFS found the water clarity to be "surprisingly clear". On the Chippy creek fire, where only 15% had been logged, the USFS estimated there would be 55,000 tons of "wildfire induced erosion", while roads produced only 80 tons. Any comments?
How does the 30,000 acres burned at Brush Creek compare to the million burned in the wilderrness of Yellowstone? "
How does the 30,000 acres burned at Brush Creek compare to the million burned in the wilderrness of Yellowstone? "
logger wrote on Jan 7, 2009 12:37 PM:
" Mr. koehler is quick to point out that Dean and Kitty are lackeys of the military industrial timber baron complex, but he doesn't mention that he is the head of the Wildwest Institute. A radical enviro group. Will Mr. Koehler release the "balance sheet" for the institute showing how much of its revenue is derived from out of state. Join me Mathew in demanding full transparency before the public.
I would like Mr. Koehlers take on the following. Only 17% of the "forested acres"(not grass,rock,or ice)on the Lolo have been logged in 50 years. Isn't that sustainable enough for you? Currently the Lolo logs 1/20th of what grows and dies every year. In the last 5 years, the Lolo has logged an average of 3000 acres/year. At that rate it will take 600 years to log off the Lolo.Not sustainable enough? Please check my numbers by going to the USDA Northern Region website. They list harvest,by year, since 1945. "
I would like Mr. Koehlers take on the following. Only 17% of the "forested acres"(not grass,rock,or ice)on the Lolo have been logged in 50 years. Isn't that sustainable enough for you? Currently the Lolo logs 1/20th of what grows and dies every year. In the last 5 years, the Lolo has logged an average of 3000 acres/year. At that rate it will take 600 years to log off the Lolo.Not sustainable enough? Please check my numbers by going to the USDA Northern Region website. They list harvest,by year, since 1945. "
Matthew Koehler wrote on Jan 7, 2009 2:56 PM:
" Dear Mr. Logger:
I have a few ideas of who you might be, but apparently you lack the courage of your convictions and would prefer to post anonymously.
If you make a formal request to our organization, I'd be happy to provide you with our most recent 990 report, as required by law. However, you'd have to do that with a real name, so we'll see if you actually follow through.
But WildWest is a very small budget non-profit organization, even though folks often think differently and talk about how "well funded" we are. We have many Montana members, as well as members in the surrounding region and around the nation. We are also supported by a few Montana-based foundations, as well as a few foundations based in the Pacfiic Northwest. Fact is, our national forests are federal public lands and belong equally to all Americans and last time I checked anyone in America who cares about public lands has a right to join a group like ours.
But what any of this has to do with helping Mr. Skaja understand the latest science and research concerning wildfire is a mystery to me.
Finally, "sustainability" in the context of very complex, diverse forest ecosystems includes much more than a simplistic view of acres logged per year vs growth rate. The fact that you apparently don't understand that speaks volumes. "
I have a few ideas of who you might be, but apparently you lack the courage of your convictions and would prefer to post anonymously.
If you make a formal request to our organization, I'd be happy to provide you with our most recent 990 report, as required by law. However, you'd have to do that with a real name, so we'll see if you actually follow through.
But WildWest is a very small budget non-profit organization, even though folks often think differently and talk about how "well funded" we are. We have many Montana members, as well as members in the surrounding region and around the nation. We are also supported by a few Montana-based foundations, as well as a few foundations based in the Pacfiic Northwest. Fact is, our national forests are federal public lands and belong equally to all Americans and last time I checked anyone in America who cares about public lands has a right to join a group like ours.
But what any of this has to do with helping Mr. Skaja understand the latest science and research concerning wildfire is a mystery to me.
Finally, "sustainability" in the context of very complex, diverse forest ecosystems includes much more than a simplistic view of acres logged per year vs growth rate. The fact that you apparently don't understand that speaks volumes. "
George Wuerthner wrote on Jan 7, 2009 4:44 PM:
" I have lived in Montana on and off for decades--though that should not matter since these are public lands and tax dollars we discussing which gives every citizen a stake in the proposal and a right to comment, question and critique.
People try to discredit the messenger when they don't like the message and don't have an effective response. And most of the response has focused on me rather than on the specific points I've made.
But beyond that, my work allows me to spend about six months of the year outdoors--giving me plenty of opportunity to look at managed landscapes as well as wildlands.
For instance, unlike most of those writing disparaging remarks about me, I have actually spent a lot more time in the Seeley Lake area than most non-Seeley Lake residents who are supporters of the proposal. I have hiked up Monture Creek, North Fork of the Blackfoot, Morrell Creek, Pyramid Pass, and other areas in the BCSP proposal as well as visited the forests around Seeley Lake slated for "restoration" numerous times over the decades. The first time in 1971 and --most recently this past August--and I have the photos to prove it.
I don't just talk from theory, but from real on the ground experience. "
People try to discredit the messenger when they don't like the message and don't have an effective response. And most of the response has focused on me rather than on the specific points I've made.
But beyond that, my work allows me to spend about six months of the year outdoors--giving me plenty of opportunity to look at managed landscapes as well as wildlands.
For instance, unlike most of those writing disparaging remarks about me, I have actually spent a lot more time in the Seeley Lake area than most non-Seeley Lake residents who are supporters of the proposal. I have hiked up Monture Creek, North Fork of the Blackfoot, Morrell Creek, Pyramid Pass, and other areas in the BCSP proposal as well as visited the forests around Seeley Lake slated for "restoration" numerous times over the decades. The first time in 1971 and --most recently this past August--and I have the photos to prove it.
I don't just talk from theory, but from real on the ground experience. "
logger wrote on Jan 7, 2009 6:43 PM:
" No Matthew, I don't want to see your IRS 990 report, I want the people of Montana to see it. Will you agreee to post it on the Wildwest Institute website?
And Yes, I will remain anonymous. I fear the environmental establishment. I apologize if I was rude. I'm sure we're both decent people.I hope our future debates can be based on the logic of our arguments, and not on the strength of our egos. "
And Yes, I will remain anonymous. I fear the environmental establishment. I apologize if I was rude. I'm sure we're both decent people.I hope our future debates can be based on the logic of our arguments, and not on the strength of our egos. "
Matthew Koehler wrote on Jan 8, 2009 8:40 AM:
" Logger: Like I said to you previously, if you (or anyone else) want a copy of our 990 report I'm happy to provide it. Simply make the request in writing and I'll send it to you. Additionally, there are a number of easy-to-use on-line sources where 990 reports for any non-profit organizations can be downloaded and looked at for free. I just looked at one such source and they have our organization's 990s going back to 1998. I will say for certain that since 2002 our organization's annual budget has been between $50,000 and $75,000, except for one year when we merged another group into the WildWest Institute and therefore our budget for that year was slightly higher.
But, once again, what any of this has to do with helping Mr. Skaja understand the latest science and research concerning wildfire or forest ecology is a mystery to me.
Another mystery is your call that our future debates should be based on the logic of our arguments. I 100% agree. However, I don't really get into debating people who lack the courage of their convictions and throw out stuff anonymously. Heck, it's kinda like having a debate with a sock puppet. And finally, I think any causal observer of this entire comment thread will see just who is (and who is not) adhering to keeping the debate based on the logic of our arguments. "
But, once again, what any of this has to do with helping Mr. Skaja understand the latest science and research concerning wildfire or forest ecology is a mystery to me.
Another mystery is your call that our future debates should be based on the logic of our arguments. I 100% agree. However, I don't really get into debating people who lack the courage of their convictions and throw out stuff anonymously. Heck, it's kinda like having a debate with a sock puppet. And finally, I think any causal observer of this entire comment thread will see just who is (and who is not) adhering to keeping the debate based on the logic of our arguments. "
Vrede wrote on Jan 7, 2009 8:16 AM: